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Loot rolls

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Loot rolls

Post by Rose on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:31 pm

In the past, we've always utilized a general honor system for loot rolls. It has worked well for us.

However, the number of people raiding now has gone up. People wanting into the raiding groups are wanting to know how loot works. Most people don't understand what we mean by a "general honor system"

If you are not a core raid member, and you join a group who has been running every week, it's generally considered polite to not take loot from a core member that still needs the piece. If you don't intend to run weekly and progress with the guild, then most consider this "taking loot from a core raid member"
If a piece of gear is better suited for one person than another...the better suited person should receive the loot.
If one dps is wearing a 359 belt and the other is wearing a 378, and a 397 belt drops...then the person with the 359 belt should receive the loot.
This is how we've done it in the past.
This works because having "loot rules" often causes issues among members that we'd like to avoid. One key to progressing as a group is keeping it drama free and friendly.

That being said...it isn't fun for a stand-in or a newly raiding member to feel that they are not allowed to roll on loot. There is no rule against any person rolling on loot that they can use. Chances are, if you are running with people who have done the same bosses repeatedly, the core members will have most of the loot they've been trying to get. An open roll for all classes that benefit from the loot is very common.
But it is considered polite to make sure a core raider doesn't need the piece first.

Before we have to resort to making loot rules, I wanted to remind people what our policy has been in the past, and why it has worked.
If it fails in the future, we will, as a group, decide how to address the issue in a different manner.

Remember that first and foremost, we want to keep our raiding group friendly and fun. While part of this fun is receiving gear upgrades, it shouldn't be the focal point. At the same time, being a core group member and losing well earned loot to a pug or a stand-in, is also not fun.

It's difficult to make the situation "fair" since we can see both perspectives. Frankly, if you are not going to be allowed to roll on anything, why should a guild member be a stand in for a core raider? At the same time, I can understand not wanting to lose out on gear you've worked very hard to obtain.

I'd like to know others thoughts on this in a constructive manner. Thanks all! Very Happy
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Re: Loot rolls

Post by Galfet on Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:45 pm

I absolutley love our current loot rules, but it does seem some of our guild doesn't quite follow the honor system or may be confused about some of it. Now correct me if I'm wrong, since my warlock is a main raider but I decide to bring in my druid one night and roll on a polearm weapon suited for a druid or hunter and a core hunter also rolls on it, I believe the hunter should recieve it because I am on an alt. Now lets keep the same scenario but lets say after raiding my lock for several weeks as a main I all of a sudden decide to switch my main to the druid and on the first night the above situation takes place. I still think the hunter should recieve that drop.
Now if we need to adjust the loot rolls I hear that most are not infavor for the DKP idea and I didn't catch how the +1 idea works. All in all if we can't agree with what is "honorable actions for core toons(more than raiders)" then we need to adjust our loot rules. Now if the raid group was to take a vote and ask someone to switch their mains based on we lost a healer of tank or good dps permentaly and needed the person to fill it(which I don't see us doing it unless said person mentioned it themselves) then I could see why that person was given a bit of exemption to the rules.
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Loot rules defined

Post by Monjoben on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:44 pm

A solid official, simple loot system needs to be in place or things start getting confusing. It seems to me our "official" loot rules to date have always been open roll MS regardless of core raid make up. While this system has some drawbacks, it seems the best suited to our raid style. No one should be angry at someone for adhering to this basic, simple rule. An implied "honor system" is not, nor should be enforceable otherwise it becomes loot distribution. If the honor system is not enforceable it should then be merely "polite" and in the spirit of guild teamwork but needs to be removed as an expectation. I want to avoid a background community of folks becoming upset because someone is operating within the "official" loot rules. Does it suck that a pug or alt gets the gear you want? Maybe but next week you are going to get another shot. Did that one core raid member give up an item he/she won on open roll to someone more suited? Great! He/She is a nice person and is going to be thought of more fondly within the community.

In response to Galf: An alt or stand in is added to the raid because he/she is fulfilling a needed role and therefore becomes a valuable member of that raid instance. I think this role should be given equal consideration in regards to loot. However, they are only viable for loot that's appropriate to that toon. For instance, even though I consider my MS Boomkin, I am tanking and therefore roll on gear appropriate to that position. However, if I switch spec to Boomkin for a fight, I am now viable for DPS gear from that fight as I'm filling a new needed role.

The question is...are we interested in changing loot rules to something other than MS Open? If YES feel free to offer suggestions. If NO then please go into our next raid with the understanding that open roll MS is still our "official" loot rules and "the honor system" is an operational suggestion.

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Re: Loot rolls

Post by Lucienda on Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:03 pm

I personally do not have an issue with the current system. There are ways we could improve it though. An idea I have run into is that you can only receive 1 drop per week or some limit per week so we “spread the loot around a little better.” That being said I have seen pretty much every loot system out there. I use to guild hop a lot due to the hard core progression and attitudes of other guilds on the Dragonblight sever. Then I found one guild in Icc days that I loved it was a small guild with a few people and they used the system of just rolling on things and you only get one loot per week. The guild later broke up due to real life issues but they allowed me to relax and enjoy wiping 10 times on a boss because the stupid hunter ninja pulled or the mage stupidly blinked into the boss (me) or even a paladin died because he DIed someone at the wrong moment. I still keep in contact with these people in game and they have become the foundation of why I play World of Warcraft.
Now back to the problem at hand. Whether it be DKP or the GDKP I believe that these systems not only put a lot of pressure not only on the loot master who has to figure out all this weird math to understand who get loot but put more stress on the individual player. DKP puts an emphasis on not going to the bath room at the wrong time, standing in the fire to long, and being a perfect minion for others to control. At least that is my experience with it. Now GDKP puts an emphasis on how much money you have at a certain time. I am constantly just scraping bye on repairs and I have it down to a science. Due to my other responsibilities and priorities in life I can’t be on the game as much as I should to have 10,000g on me every week to buy a piece of gear. This leaves people without the time or ability to raise gold fast at a disadvantage. I have had problems with loot systems that hold to this standard of numbers and math. These types of loot systems normally leave me tattered, stressed out, and pissed off at someone for no reason other than I need to let out stress. This stress affects me emotionally a lot creating crying jags, yelling at random people (normally on vent) and a bad attitude. I do not need loot to become a stressful situation for I do to the fact that I already have to worry about school. We should remember when we are giving out loot that it is just a game we all play for fun. We also, all need to remember that it is just loot and it will drop again and we will have another chance to get that piece. We have a whole expansion to wait for and if it’s anything like the wait for this expansion that will be a while.
As to the thought of "core raiders" and whether they should get priority over other people, I believe if you give the "core raiders" this ability you hamper the rest of the guilds progress. Let’s say, for example, that one of the "core" healers couldn't make it and we need a replacement...what are we going to do if no one else has the gear for that raid or does not have enough output for us to survive a fight because of the fact that we had not been giving everyone an "equal opportunity" We might die to a boss because of that factor. This also leaves more stress on the two “core healers” to pick up the healing more. Our healers do not need any more stress at the current moment they are already worried enough about healing your butts. Also, not handing out loot to everyone else makes our team feel more “clicky” than it should be and thus discourages other people from playing with us when someone doesn't show up.
Personally I feel right now that I’m in between two characters right now and need enough gear to keep them up to “raid standards.” That is the reason I rolled on that tear piece for Huckleberrîe not because I want to hamper anyone’s dps but because I feel like I feel that we are going to need her healing more in the future.
I apologize for the length of this post but this is one of the topics that have popped up that I feel most strongly about. Having fun is a top priority for me in a raid not being world first or server first. I could care less if we downed a boss in Dragon Soul as long as I was having fun wiping with everyone. The loot rules are a basic foundation on how a guild runs. If we change it to something harder on people’s overall performance then we lose the more relaxed atmosphere that I hold in such a high priority.
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Re: Loot rolls

Post by Rose on Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:14 pm

I agree with most of what you said Lucy.

I'm not sure about the "1 loot per week" idea though. That seems a bit harsh.

What I would like to see is that if a single person has already won 1 or 2 items, that they pass on the next thing that drops, if someone else needs it or if it is a bigger upgrade, or better suited to another player.

In essence, encouraging people to not be greedy, without making any hardcore rules.
If we get to a point where we must make rules...then we will. In the meantime...I'd like people to feel a sense of fairplay by making the choice to not be greedy, if that makes sense.
Forcing people into rules often backfires and people lose interest in running the raids.

I also agree that alts and other guildies need to upgrade their gear.
That being said...I would hate to see guildies coming in, getting gear and then moving on to raid with a faster progressing guild, or pugging with other guilds, once they've gotten the loot from our raids.
The reason people do this is because other guilds have rules against non-guildies rolling on "their" gear. So they raid with us, get gear and then move on to progress elsewhere.
I have seen that happen a few times. That is the core reason, I believe, that people get upset when pugs or stand-ins roll on the gear.
If they intend to stick around and raid with the guild, then they should have just as much right to roll as a "core raider" whether they can raid weekly, or not.

If we cannot get 2 raiding groups going, then we will want to get everyone, core raider or not, geared to raid (assuming they want to) in order to ensure that we can successfully raid each week with a full guild group.

Keep in mind that these suggestions apply to everyone. If I ever got the chance to actually play my hunter in DS and a piece dropped, I would likely pass on it if someone else needed it. Why? Because it's unlikely I am going to get the chance to play my hunter very often as we are short of healers. Why take loot from someone else in the raiding group for a toon that I will rarely get a chance to raid with?

Regarding your druid, you can...and should roll on healing pieces, because you likely will be raiding with her in DS with us often. Very Happy
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Just Relax

Post by Fangcaster on Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:33 pm

I really see no reason to change the way we have been doing things for months and months .. we are a raid set around FUN! am i wrong? when little things like loot start to make people feel like they are NOT having fun then we have an issue with the raider not the loot system. we arent going for world first or server first hell we arent even going for epic awesome first..( Fang has that by the way) we are all here to see the content and have FUN. if you arent having fun then find something else to do. we are all adults and we all know its only a game right? i know what im saying sounds really harsh but i find truth in it. there are 9 other people THEN yourself. thats the way ive always thought about things. we have all become friends over the weeks and we all want things from these raids. But if we lose the Fun then we lose more than just a little piece of loot we will get at some point anyways.

p.s. sorry i didnt have big words to make that sound offical Wink- lol jk you all rock Wink

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Re: Loot rolls

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